This is really a rhetorical question because I am convinced that the program (Hearts card game) by Microsoft DOES in fact cheat.I first noticed it on XP. But, I've REALLY noticed it on Vista. Here is what I mean.
I've played X amount of games. The game keeps track of overall stats. Whenever I go over a 38% win rate (which isn't really all that hot but it's respectable) the program starts to gain up on me and kick my ass. I mean, seriously. I get dealt hands that NO ONE could do anything with. I will lose over and over again; then, once I drop back down to 37%, I will start to win again (I'll be dealt hands that any idiot could shoot the moon with).
This has happened over and over again. I cannot get past 38%!
I looked this up on Google and someone said, "Well, I don't think it is cheating, rather, like with "real" people, once one person starts to get ahead, the computer might attempt to "gang up on you".
Ok, this is true. If you are playing with REAL people that are half-way respectable, they will, in likelihood, "gang up on you" if you are out ahead.
But, this is NOT what happens with the program. No, not at all. First off, "real people" can't deal you particular rotten hands over and over and over again. And, "real people" won't allow someone else to shoot the moon just to get YOU (not in my experience, anyway). But, the program continually allows one of the other players to shoot the moon (whilst I sit by unable to stop them and watch my opponents throw the Ace of Hearts or something on someone trying to shoot the moon...I mean...DUH!)
Obviously, this blog entry is meant to be somewhat mindless. A ramble, a rant. Man, this pisses me off, though, which is why I am writing about it.
I played one game this afternoon and just hit 38% AGAIN. Any guesses as to who will NOT win the next game?
Mrs. B
1,588 comments:
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Five games tonite - four times cutesy play on first hand. Four times a bot lands on 99 (just one more chance to get hosed).
If Microsoft Hearts "cheats", how is it that I consistently, playing thousands of games over the years, win over 60% of my games? I play in batches of 100-200 games, and currently have won 64% of 190 games
I've played Hearts using actual cards for nigh on 60 years and have wonderful memories of 'competitive' games against school pals, even now I can imagine their comments, some quite robust ....., when the MS game is in play.
However, at times things happen with the MS game that simply are not consistent with straightforward dealing and playing.
Occasionally I have to lead when I didn't win the last trick - the screen stays blank until I put a card down, but it shouldn't be me! On other occasions when it seems I am meant to do well I may lose a hand and hearts have been heaped on me but points are not awarded against me!
As for manipulation of the queen - if some of the sequences it offers up had happened during my young days, games would have ended in acrimony and accusations of cheating, but they never did.
I have arrived at the conclusion that the pc plays all three hands using the 39 cards as it wishes against the 13,in other words hands are not necessarily allocated to the three pc 'players' and as and when it suits the program to do so, it simply plays with a hand of 39. Quite an advantage! Nevertheless, I still enjoy the contest if only to recall my pals comments from all those years ago.
Like Robert, I also win at a decent clip. My problem is with HOW I lose. My first two games this morning are perfect examples. Game one I'm leading by 3 points. Hand #12, the lone AH is PUT in my hand (I refuse to say "dealt") I take a four-point trick, the "chosen one" takes no tricks and I lose by one. Game two,I end up with QS and two or less protectors in my hand 7 out of 11 hands. This crap happens way too often to be incidental.
Three games in a row - first hand - "dealt" void in hearts - got passed A-K - automatic 8 points. This is just ridiculous. Is my game "stuck" on a pattern or something? Or is the programer that big a moron?
My observations. I've Played thousands of MSHEARTS games on Windows XP and 98.
part 1
I think the only way the computer cheats is when it deals the cards.
It does count cards and if only 2 spades are left (the Queen and a higher spade), the computer knows another player must take the trick and so it will lead it's Queen of spades.
If hearts break on one of your tricks before the Queen of spades has been played, the computer will not play the Queen of spades on a Ace or King of Spades you lead unless the Queen is the last spade that computer player has. This can come in handy if you are not trying to run, but have very few spades. If hearts broke on one of your tricks and no other player took any hearts, you are considered to be running the hand, even if you don't want to. If it is your lead and you want to get rid o the King and or Ace of spades without taking the Queen, lead the high spade and the computer will not play the Queen unless that is the only spade they have left.
They will however dump the Queen of spades on any non-spade trick if they don't have the suit played.
To me it seems that the game usually (not always, but most of the time) favors the lowest score computer player, dealing that player low cards so that player takes very few points.
It also seems the highest score player is given bad hands so it keeps taking more points. But this seems to stop sometimes when the high point player gets close to going out and losing. Then one of the next higher players will be given hands such that they take the majority of the points. It does not always work this way, but more often than chance it seems.
I also notice that almost always (with few exceptions) that cards are dealt to the computer players such that one of them always has a majority of hearts. That player often has 5 or more hearts in it's hand. This allows that player to have enough hearts to take a heart trick from you if you don't have all the biggest hearts in your hand.
Along the same lines, the computer players seem to be dealt and pass cards such that their hands are mostly one suit of cards.
My observations. I've Played thousands of MSHEARTS games on Windows XP and 98.
Part 2
Along the same lines, the computer players seem to be dealt and pass cards such that their hands are mostly one suit of cards.
Once hearts is broken or the Queen of spades is played The computer players keep the highest card and lowest card in their long suit and play the cards in between, usually next highest, next next highest until they have just the highest and lowest cards left.
If you are the only player that has taken hearts and/or Queen of spades (potentially can run the hand), the computer will keep the highest card in their long suit until the last trick.
Once your potentail run has been stopped the computer players get rid of the highest cards first.
The computer players will not take a trick with points on it until the last trick of the hand, unless they have no other choice.
When not having to follow suit, the computer players play a card from the suit they have the fewest cards of.
The computer players will try to stop you from running a hand, but will not try to stop another computer player from running a hand, unless they have no choice (a high card in a played suit).
More often than not the first hand of the game deals the player opposite you the bad hand. This is the hand where passing 3 cards is to the left.
More often than not, when passing to the right, the player to your right ends up with the Queen of spades.
Often times the battle of running (or taking as few points as possible) is between you and one other player. This battle is between the player opposite you and the player to the left of you more than the player to the right of you.
It is safe to pass the Queen of spades to the player to the left, as long as you have one other lower spade. If they aren't forced to play the Queen, it is safe for you to get rid of the King or Ace (as long as you aren't in lead).
If you pass the Queen and Ace of spades to the right and the player opposite you leads spades, it is safe to play the King of spades because the player to the right (being the last to play a card on this trick) will play the higest spade instead of the Queen. Not sure of the logic behind this. I think it follows the logic of getting rid of your highest (bad) card if you are the last player on a trick.
Oftentimes when passing to the opposite player, that player passes bad cards to you. so you can try to run those hands more.
It is rarely possible to run when passing to the left, as the player to the right gets high cards. And the player to your right passes you small cards which prevent you from running.
I'm sure there are a few other things I didn't remember. Sorry for such a wordy post.
Of course it cheats.....I've lost count on the number of times the PC has led a low heart before a heart has been played, even though the PC player has got other suits.
I thought the rules of the game state that 'YOU CAN'T LEAD A HEART BEFORE A HEART HAS BEEN LAID'. Obviously, the programmers choose to ignore this rule in favour of a 'PLAY IT SO FAST THAT PEOPLE MIGHT NOT NOTICE' approach. Lame, indeed.
You got be kidding Robert and ilk! What do you need as proof? The cheating cards to jump off the screen and poke you in the eye? What part do you not get about the word "cheat"? Do you understand basic statistics and probabilities? THE GAME CHEATS FOR YOU TO WIN AS WELL AS TO LOSE! The cards are NOT randomly dealt! What was one of the more recent posts, "it only cheats on the deal". What part of cheat do you not get? "He only steals money through computer hacking not by robbing banks" That statement would be a good analogy. No wonder the world is in turmoil when many, if not most, base their thought patterns on their "experiences" and emotions instead of cold hard facts. "Why do idiots have opinions" should be a logical conclusion.
Try to lose the game in five hands. If you continue, you will find that you will get increasingly better hands. Hands so good you cannot force a loss.
Fascinating! I just searched the web on this topic and found your blog. I totally agree that the hearts game cheats. It is like playing three against one. In real life this never happens; everyone is out for themselves.
Now having said this, I have managed to get a respectable 46% win rate, but I have done this by deliberately NOT doing what the computer expects me to do when I pass cards. And unless shooting the moon is a lock, I do not attempt it. My best score so far is 3. I wonder if anything wonderful happens if you finish with zero?
Over a couple thousand games, my win percentage is around 55-60%. I haven't noticed some of the things people talk about on here, like being forced to lead when you didn't take the trick, cards showing up in places other than where you passed them, etc.
I'm convinced it does cheat, though. There has to be an explanation for the fact that one bot always sucks and racks up points left and right, while you simply cannot hang points on the "chosen" bot. I think that most of the cheating happens in the deal, and it's incredibly frustrating.
What I hate most about the hearts program cheating is that it deliberately goes out of turn when it wants!(never mind the statistically impossible plays and card leads)
This programme does not cheat. It does however make some pretty dumb moves from time to time which you can take advantage of. Now if you were on the same skill level as the progrmme you would only win 25% of the time.. So a score of 48% is doing very well and with a bit more study a person ought to be able raise this to about 55% or more. The law of averages says you won't be able to do much better than that. The cards are dealt using a random number generator, and claerly not many of you know how that works. If the program actually cheated you would maybe win only 15% of the time. So it would seem to me that most of the complaints are down to a lack of understanding as to how things actually work. For many on thius thread your attitude is somewhat reminiscent of the church in the middle ages dealing with Copernicus and Gallileo...
Count me among those who don't know how a "random" number generator works. If you want to take a little time and effort, I'm sure you will be as confused as I am. Grab a notebook or sheet of paper and track some or all of the following:
Using only the dealt cards before any passing.
Write down the LOWEST heart in your hand.
Write down any singletons (lone card in a suit)
Write down the number of times you are dealt the 2C or the 2H.
I don't know the exact formulas, but you should hold 2H or 3H as lowest heart more than 5H or 7H (based on the probablity of lower cards available) Do you?
You should be dealt the 2H and 2C an equal number of times. Are you?
It would take a large number of hands to truly prove, but you should be dealt each of the 52 cards as a singleton an equal number of times. Let me know if you don't receive the QS, KS, AS, and large hearts multiple times before many of the other cards show up as singletons. (Be sure and denote "hold 'em" hands on this one.)
When you are convinced every thing is in line with the mathematical probabilities you can state that there is a "random" card distribution in place.
A while back on this blog, someone made several posts about their college statistics class tracking thousands of games and proving the grossly skewed probabilities of this game. My experience suggests the validity af his/her claims.
A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing. Why is it always Mr Anonymous that states 'facts' based upon opinion, usually his, but not original. A random number generator generates random numbers. Stating the obvious? Not according to this fool. Where does he get his statistics from? A guesstimate based on opinion. "Anonymous said...This programme does not cheat. It does however make some pretty dumb moves from time to time which you can take advantage of. Now if you were on the same skill level as the progrmme you would only win 25% of the time.. So a score of 48% is doing very well and with a bit more study a person ought to be able raise this to about 55% or more. The law of averages says you won't be able to do much better than that. The cards are dealt using a random number generator, and claerly not many of you know how that works. If the program actually cheated you would maybe win only 15% of the time. So it would seem to me that most of the complaints are down to a lack of understanding as to how things actually work. For many on thius thread your attitude is somewhat reminiscent of the church in the middle ages dealing with Copernicus and Gallileo...
January 10, 2012 2:47 PM"
The program determines whether you WIN as well as LOSE. You determine how much that percentage is by YOUR input. It can't partly cheat, it either cheats or it doesn't. The cards are NOT dealt randomly. Fact. (or do we need to rehash that again) Ergo it CHEATS! Whether the PROGRAMMER or PROGRAM cheats is redundant. The rest is semantics and opinion! What part don't these idiots get about cheating?
If I were playing craps and, after several hundred rolls, found that I was rolling snake-eyes the same amount of times I was rolling 7's I'd be accusing somebody of some kind of chicanery
I've tracked the 2H vs. 5H for over 1000 hands. I am dealt the 5H as my lowest heart 50% more often than the 2H. According to a friend, it should be around 30% more in favor of the 2H (based on the 2H automatically being the lowest, and 5H having the possibility of three lower cards.) That is a huge skewing of odds. It also gives a clue as to why you get the "cutesy" play so damn often.
Just tried tracking lowest heart - wow! Very first game - 5,9,J,4,5,7,5,3,10,7,6,4. Next game - 6,9,K,5,3,8,5,5,7,4,6 Next game 5,7,3,Q,2,5,10,7,6,5,8. One deuce in over 30 hands, Lower than 5 only 20%
I just went 28 hands in a row without seeing the 2H. Freaking amazing. I'm willing to bet anyone any amount that you will NEVER go 28 hands without seeing the QS. Any takers? I'm flatly stating it IS NOT POSSIBLE with this program.
I've tracked over 100 games. In games of 9 hands or more, I was not dealt the 2H in 9 games. I was not dealt the QS in zero games. I was not dealt the QS in one 7-hand game. Explain to me how this "random number selection" thing works again.
Some very interesting comments. I fall into the "not random" camp. To me it's fairly easy to prove. Without knowing math formulas, keep track of simple one-to-one probabilities. You're odds of drawing any three cards should be the same as drawing any other three cards. Keep track of the hands you are not dealt the 2,3, or 4 of hearts (good cards) and the number of hands you're not dealt A,K, or Q of spades (bad cards). Would love to do a poll and see how many people get a skewed number of "good cards".
It's not clear that the game cheats, however I have seen some ridiculous hands dealt. The designer of the game had little knowledge of basic hearts strategies, like never pass the A, K, and Q of hearts. The "computer" players have not been programmed to WIN the game, rather they play with some obscure, pathetic strategy. The interface looks good, but the developer was a hearts moron.
How clear does it need to be? Do the simplest test I can think of. Compare the times you are "dealt" the QS compared to the 2H. Make marks on a paper, put black jelly beans in a bowl for QS and red ones for 2H. Whatever. I want to hear from the first person who has equal numbers. The simplest logic in the world tells you the odds of drawing one card are exactly equal to drawing another.
The solution is simple. Cheat back! . . . which is what I do. 400+ consecutive wins 'til I tired of beating the poor @#*2%$ and started cheating all over.
Mrs.B
What Mick said is basicly true,from the comments,these people would lose every game against good hearts players.First "shooting the moon" hardly ever happens,good players prevent this by passing at least one low heart they can beat.
Secondly you must count cards at all times to know what cards are out there and who has what. the people who duck usually lose.You must keep tke right igh cards to control the game.I seldomly pass an ace I'll always keep the queen if i have 3 other spades. By the time half of the hand is over you should pretty well know who has what.
As far as microsoft hearts,its probably the worst of the computer games. I've been dealt hands that will never occur in a real game,the odds are astoundinly against it. I have even challenged the game by writting down what they would pass e 3 out of 5 I'm right.Does it cheat? semantics. It wants you to think your a good player,otherwise you would'nt play.
cardplayer
Whew...
Thought I was losing my mind
Glad to see I am not the only one getting the ass handed to me in hearts for some unknown reason
How many other people get dealt the Queen with either by itself, or with a single spade card alongside it, with the leading hand leading a spade? You either duck or throw your queen down straight away, it doesn't matter what you do, you'll *always* get caught with the bugger.
How many others notice that when you're shooting the moon, you'll get beaten on the last card (say a 8 of diamonds vs the blocking player's 9 of diamonds or something similar). It happens far too often for it not to be rigging by the computer. The number of *hit hands I get dealt that are impossible to win with, let alone getting caught big is amazing. Then there's getting the Queen dumped on you in no single unkind terms - say I've got the 4 of diamonds, someone has the 3 of diamonds. They'll almost always lead the 3, I lay my 4 (this is an example of the play type), the 3rd player throws off and the last player throws down the big ole Queen of spades. Happens far far far too often for it to be "luck".
How many times do you get thrown large off suites, so that it's a much higher chance of you getting the Queen dumped on you cos you simply have to follow suite and can only play a large card?
Blatant cheating by the computer and it's incredibly frustrating.
Dave
After several hundred games I figured out the algorithms. My record since 6/11: 1506 wins out of 1511 games played. Yep, 99.66% and that's for real, including a 600+ streak. All without cheating.
Another poster already mentioned some of the algorithms. Once you realize that it's really three dumb bots following a limited set of rules, your win percentage goes up dramatically. I play aggressively and have successfully shot the moon at least once in each game, often without all the top hearts or a void, sometimes with A3, K4, Qx, or even a singleton 8. I count the cards but not all cards all the time. I watch for discards because the bots play their suits in a particular order. I can induce a desired discard result by switching the order of my suit plays. I watch position plays and apply Bridge techniques such as finesse and squeeze.
I don't know about the random generator being flawed. You'd have to have a large enough sample size to check against. I have come back from 78 pts down (to the bots' 20's) and won the games. The odds are definitely in my favor against these bots, while the same can't be said with real players.
That does it! I'm going back to the blog about Obama being a space alien. Might be a speck of truth there.
Wow! Such a busy thread for this topic.
To add my bit... I'm also pretty sure that MS Hearts cheats selectively. It certainly counts the cards in a legitimate fashion - that's how another (computer operated) player knows to lead the spade queen to your ace or king - i.e. where 10 spade cards have been played and the A + K + Q are still out there. There are several other situations where counting the cards of a given suit played is a useful strategy.
However, I have seen the other phenomenon over and over where the game will deal one of a number of preset "dud" hands. Far too many of these to be statistically likely in fact. Some are identical hands dealt for each other player too. This is certain because I have been dealt exactly the same hand twice running - while the other players also had THE SAME HANDS as the previous deal!!!!!! VERY FISHY INDEED! The program definitely does keep track of good players' performance and intentionally sets out to prevent them getting too far ahead.
To the respondents asking about shooting the moon four times in a single game - I have achieved that on a number of occasions over many years playing, and have the screen captures to prove it. It happens about once or twice a year, playing at least an hour a day.
This program really does not cheat. Ignorance is the main problem plus many people seem to really bad losers. There is an old adage - "Learn by your mistakes" and soon you will be winning more hands. Once you have figured out the program, you will realise it is dumb - but you will be dumber than it if you do not pay attention. Some hands are real losers - it in the mathematics. I don't know about winning 99% of the time as some claim - but anyone shopukld be able to manage at least 50% wins if not much better. The game is really bad in defending against shooting the moon - it holds back on deliberately losing a trick to prevent. You will be the only player who can prevent this from happening. So unless you take notice of what is going on you can easily get sunk by the bad plays of the others. They are not in cahoots - they just play badly - very badly sometimes. If the guy who has the queen of spades also has the ace of spade you can safely lead the King of spades and instead of dropping the queen it will take it with the ace everytime! But beware they do count the cards and if you don't you can easliy become victim to a mathematical squeeze play! Its all in the math not in the cheating...
I honestly do not care how the game plays. I just want the damn cards dealt fairly and THEY ARE NOT!
The 1st of February produces another moron with an 'opinion' who has no more logic, math or commonsense than would be expected from the obvious dolt that he is.
Ignorance? Pot, kettle dopey. Your attempts at reasoning are mind boggling.
Guesstimates and pulling percentages out of thin air (between your ears) are not the basis for fact!
Read back through what you wrote (or attempted to) and if you can't pick up on your contradictions then it is blatantly obvious why you came to such conclusions. Maybe you should join the Flat Earth Society's Board, they would love to have another like minded thinker.
Once and for all, opinions aren't fact! These are just the ramblings of a disorganized mind and have nothing to do with the logistics of the cheating game, which have been clearly documented by now.
I agree with the poster from Feb. 3, with one exception. I do not like the bots passing spades lower than the queen. It's pretty obvious this goes on, considering the number of hands that one bot is long in spades and the bot that passed to him is void. It is very rare that passing lower spades is a good strategy, buts it's awfully frustrating when you hold 5 spades to the queen and still get it led out of you.
73% win percentage through 82 games on Windows 7 ultimate. I've played thousands of games on different versions of Windows and this latest one is the easiest. The game cheats very badly, but I find it somewhat interesting to use my knowledge of the computer's cheating strategies to beat three hands playing together against me.
Just like Mrs B, I'm stuck on 37%. If I go higher the hammer comes down and I am dealt card that are impossible to win with.
It the programme definitely cheats look carefully at what is lead for example say a ten of diamonds one puts a nine on the others put an eight the other a heart and it is sent to you.
Apart from all the other ways that I read here and also noticed
ocuthI have been severly punished by windows for reading this blog. I have played over 20 games of hearts after reading and have not won once. beware!
I don't actually mind at all if MS Windows 7 Hearts "cheats". I only use it for training and I play Hearts for real at the MSN Game Zone. The extent to which W7 Hearts gives me more difficult situations is therefore a plus, because it allows me to practice dealing with them.
As for percentages, I have read that Hoyle rates Hearts as 2/5 luck and 4/5 skill, which to me equates to 1/3 luck and 2/3 skill. In other words each of two equally skilled opponents has a 1/3 chance of winning, and so an overall win rate of 33% is perfectly OK!
My figures above are, of course, a nonsense; satirical not empirical, as befits some of the other erroneous number crunching in this blog!
On a more constructive note, the MSN Game Zone Hearts offers not only realtime competitive games but also the option of playing games against three computer opponents, so readers here might wish to test that out, to check whether that play more "fairly".
Correction: "to check whether that plays more fairly."
No doubt the program cheats. I've seen far too many plays that make absolutely no sense unless you know exactly what cards the other players are holding. I also see a frequency of one player holding the 2 of hearts, one player the 3 of hearts, one player the 4 of hearts, and one player the 5 of hearts that would be statistically impossible.
I put this forward as a possible answer as to why some people do not experience the strange problems with MS Hearts that others do - is it possible that there are a number (maybe many) versions of the game? So, the version on my pc may be different to that the people next door use? It wouldn't be a problem for MS to do that, because the game comes free with their OS's etc, and they could load Xno. batches at a time with one version and then the next batch with another. It's even possible that OS updates could include changes to games, in which case comparing one person's experience with another is akin to comparing apples with pears. Just a thought! :)
Intrigued by this blog, it is quite superb Mrs B.
Very recently a question prompted me to calculate how many different 13 card hands can be generated from 52 cards. My stats knowledge is dated (>50 years) and my memory poor, however, my answer of approx 635Bn was in accord with what I found on the net.
Given that I suppose MS Hearts has to cheat, because a program capable of dealing with such a vast array of combinations would not be a 'freebie' with an OS. I wonder, is there such a product, and if so what does it cost?
The bots don't cheat. The cards are random and there is no collusion.
How do I know? Because it's not consistent, and randomizing cheating habits is beyond the scope of a relatively cheap algorithmic game program.
What is true is that they don't play like humans. They do save either a big card or a heart when they detect a moon is being attempted, but sometimes they get it wrong--two of them save hearts or two of them save high cards. They're good at counting spades and hearts and not good at counting diamonds and clubs.
You can cheat them by using the knowledge that they'll always "protect" a king against your ace--until you can safely take their king. Humans are much quicker to sacrifice the 2-4 points to defend against a moon. And humnas are more inconsistent.
The game does not get more difficult as your percentage of wins goes up. Again--you've confusing randomness for a smarter program than what you get installed free on your computer.
With a 1000 game sampling I would be surprised if any human (without hacking) could play much above 60% win rate. Since you have to beat three opponents and since sometimes those opponents are dealt zero point hand after zero point hand---you can't win them all.
I started at 22% and it's taken me about 6 months (and a couple of thousand games) to get to 47% I play when I'm sleepy and distracted and make careless mistakes. If my life depended on it -- I could get my average into the low 50s. Some--better more consistent card counters--could do a little better than me.
That's it. There's no conspiracy. No evil bots who don't play fair. Just a dumb, random, game program--that's beatable -- up to a point.
the bots pass low hearts and low spades because otherwise they would almsot never shoot the moon. They'e not smart about it--they just do it 'sometimes' though I do not know what the trigger is. it might be as dumb as purely random.
They also never pass the ace of hearts. If you read he directions on How to Play--you'll learn why. The programmer(s) who also wrote the how-to blurb) over value the ace of hearts as a deterrent to other players shooting the moon. It works--up to a point--but it is not a thinking strategy.
In keeping with one of the comments on this superb blog, I opened up the game 10 times without playing a card. That is, I simply received the deal noted the cards I'd been dealt and cancelled the game, then repeated the process to a total of 10 games. I received the Ace of Spades on 8 occasions out of the 10. What chance of that in the 'real' game with humans shuffling and dealing?
I am now at a 73% win percentage through 145 games. It is interesting that at a high win rate, the game actually sometimes will pick two chosen bots that almost never win points. I have even seen the game change from one chosen bot to another, depending on which has the lowest score. Exploiting the knowledge that these cheating strategies will be used allows more games to be won. For example, I target the chosen bot(s) and protect the bot that is racking up points quickly. In addition, when the game really wants me to rack up points, it passes high cards of all suits thus allowing me to shoot the moon, the game being notoriously terrible at preventing this.
I wonder if it would even be possible to implement a hearts game that cheats in all the ways that have been mentioned in this blog. It would be a HUGE program. I have two words for all of you. "Occam's Razor". Oh, and if you can't win 50% of the time against this dumb ass game, maybe you should try something else.
I think your razor is getting a bit dull. Play the game a bit more, and you will see that it is clearly cheating. In fact, make the registry change that allows you to see the opponents cards and see how far from random the card dealing is. As for the programming, a few silly cheating strategies do not require a huge program, nor does changing the strategies around a bit based on the desired difficulty level (which appears to be governed by the win percentage). Perhaps you think Micosoft would not cheat due to ethics, which is laughable. However, take a look at the newest minesweeper bundled with Windows 7. I've played hundreds of games and have never set off a mine with the first click. What do the "laws" of probability suggest there?
I've played 4412 games, and won 2512 for a 56% win percentage. Against equal players, I'd expect to win 25% of the time, so obviously the gameplay is pretty poor. The only cheat I've noticed is that it seems that the West seems to get the Q of spades far too often. But maybe I just notice it because it's particularly irksome. After playing thousands of hands, sometimes you get good runs, and sometimes you get bad runs. I've had over 5 full games where I got zero points (it only keeps the last 5 in the 'best games list'). If the computer gets zero points I immediately suspect cheating. If I get zero points, it's because I'm a brilliant player. I've had a 12 game winning streak, and an 8 game losing streak. Stuff like that happens with random deals. I think the reason I win more than 25% is that I'm much better at shooting the moon than the game is.
Perhaps you could list the specific ways you think the game cheats. And then come up with why it would be economically viable for Microsoft, a publicly held company, to include a game that cheats.
Regarding Minesweeper, after a few games it became apparent that they either generate the puzzle after the first click, or they move the mine that's under the cursor when you do the first click. Not sure why they did that, maybe people wrote in complaining. So it's not a question of probability at all.
The game is pretty dumb. The main advantages the human player has is the ability to target given players, and the human is better at shooting the moon and preventing moonshots. The computer is MUCH better at I than counting cards.
Winning strategies: always pass the Queen of spades on Qxx, Qx, Q. The computer players always target the Queen ASAP, and sometimes it seems as if they're rotating around until the lead falls to a player with low spades. But really that's just an artifact of them playing low.
Always be vigilant for opportunities to shoot the moon when it falls in your lap even if in pre-deal it didn't seem possible.
Hold onto the queen on Qxxx or better and target the lowest player. Obviously your patience in doing that is a function of the length of your spade holding.
yes it cheats big time! if i have no spades of higher order then it will possibly take use of the lag like that of a high diamond or club card and pass me the queen. secondly, if i have shot the moon then it will almost try to pass me that queen somehow sometimes on cards as low as the 2 of diamond. also, once you have a low score and the others are somewhere near 80 they pass you hands and play in a way that is impossible to win with. contrast this to the situation when some other one like east is winning and west is in 80s. they will push him up past 100 as soon as possible to give east the win. it is rigged and heavily at that.it is like 3 guys playing against one and that too when they have a control over the dealing and i am not even on vista.i am using 7 ultimate edition.
Currently at 73% win percentage through 171 games; there is no question the game's play is poor. However, as I have suggested before, assuming the game is cheating has allowed me to increase my win percentage significantly. I have also previously listed the many ways I believe the game is cheating. However, as these cannot easily be proven, I suggested looking at the nonrandom card dealing. As confirmed by a skeptic, the queen of spades shows up more frequently than expected on the left. If you had three hands to play against someone and controlled the nonrandom card dealing, where would you place the queen of spades? In fact, unless I know otherwise, I assume the queen of spades is always on my left. I also assume the other three players have the lowest remaining hearts in sequential order (2, 3, and 4 of hearts ring any bells?).
Why would a publicly held company like Microsoft include a game that cheats? Well we all know publicly held companies are ethical, so perhaps it is the simple fact that Microsoft has no competition and can provide substandard software without suffering consequences (that is until everyone starts switching to a company that provides a different hardware and operating system bundle at six times the price, but that wouldn't happen, would it?).
Hi, I currently have a 69% win percentage over 500 games. I haven't felt like the computer cheats, just that it makes silly plays sometimes because the AI isn't very advanced.
73% win rate through 185 games. My definition of intelligence, artificial or otherwise, in no way includes this ridiculous, cheating game.
The question I cannot get answered is what happens if you manage to shoot all the hearts scrolling up after you win. I have got it down to about 8 left, but don't know if it is worth the effort to get them
win 7 cheats, no doubt in my mind. Even maintaining 55% in 212 games the 3 pc players literally gang up on you. honestly...you really believe they don't "talk" to each other.
notice how you wont find who wrote the program.
Anyone who thinks the deals are random (anything else is CHEATING, explain the frequency of the human having the 5H and taking the 4, 3, 2. I don't care if you play two games or 200 or 2000, you will see it. Pure BS.
I don't think it cheats to much. The dealing is "Random" any random number generator requires a seed, this seed can be time of day, year, cpu usage memory usage, or combination. There are times the seed will produce the same "random" deals. The AI is heavily influenced by how the team plays the game. Once you learn their way of playing it is easy to win. Remember Reversi in windows 2 ? to clear all 64, you didn't play as if you were playing a person you played as if you were playing a computer. A group of college students where i was working came up with 6 solutions to clear all 64 and a couple to not take one. This version of hearts doesn't realize you know where and what you passed, use that to your advantage. Otherwise it seems to play much like a Bridge or Spades (no AI) player that learned hearts.
No, the game doesn't cheat. In fact, it rewards card counters. I *always* approach or exceed 70 percent wins, and I can't imagine less than 60 percent over any respectable sample (say 50 games or more). One of the keys is that one should be very aggressive about shooting. Always anticipate possible passes that will, in combination with what you are passing, give you a possible moon shot. Moreover, with regard to "cheating", the program doesn't even play proper defense -- particularly against shooting. First of all, the program rarely passes a single low heart, which all decent players know and do to try and prevent moonshots. In fact, the computer often passes three small hearts, which if you are retaining your large hearts helps give you control of the suit. And when distribution is tough, as it often is, the computer will allow you to make a moon shot that a competent player would not allow -- if you are counting the cards, particularly the hearts. If you have, say, 10, 9, and 5 of hearts left (queen already played to you, as well as all other hearts), and the computer has, in one hand, the 8, 7, and 4, you can win against the computer, whereas any decent player could defeat you. The secret is to know the count, and then play your 5 first. Invariably, the computer will duck it with the 4, allowing you to complete the moon shot. A human player, knowing the situation, would take that 5 and lead its 4 back. So the computer doesn't cheat, I believe, and in fact isn't much of a player. And anyone who can't beat the computer about two-thirds or more is not the player they believe themselves to be, either. :)
I will say that I agree with the poster who questions the frequency of the 5-4-3-2 heart trick, however. That seems to high to be random, however it does not always happen. And as for the AI, I doubt if it uses any. I suspect that it's played purely algorithmically. Clearly, the passing of a single low heart to prevent moonshots is not part of the algorithm, either. It rarely does this, and give a competent human player an enormous edge in shooting the moon. I have, on several occasions shot the moon on each of the first three hands, resulting of course in a 0 to 78, 78, 78 lead. Never gotten the pure four-moon-shot sequence yet, but I'm sure I'll get another shot at it. Against human players, shooting the first three hands would just about be impossible, I reckon, unless one has seriously card-challenged opposition. The program is just about right, I think, challenging enough to keep you from winning all the time, but dumb enough to let you win 3/4 of the games ... IF you take the game seriously, count all the cards in your head, and be aggressive about looking for shooting attempts. There is another aspect to the game that seems less than random, too, and that is that one often is able to win the game coming from behind with a moonshot on the last hand. This happens too often to seem random. So one should always look for a chance to close out games that way.
I hadn't played MS Hearts for over two months. Played one game tonite. Took 4 points with the 5H 3 times in 12 hands & was dealt a heart lower than the five 4 times. Random deal?
Believe whatever you want
I won 70 games out of 100 and the game says my winning percentage is 69%. That's not a conspiracy, it's just sloppy code. And I suspect that goes for the rest of the conspiracies that comments on this blog have read into the behavior of MS Hearts.
I suppose, though, that it's possible the programmer really did write elaborate code to irritate us the longer we played. In which case, we should take his or her hint and put our time to better use.
I was able to 100% confirm that Microsoft Hearts does "cheat".
I patched my Win7 hearts so I can uncover the cards of all players.
( the patch is out there - just search for it ).
Note: you have to click on debug while the cards are being dealt to STOP things. Then you can click on "Show Hands" to see the face card side. Click anywhere else to continue the shuffle.
Now you can see which three cards the other players will be passing.
In this case I CLEARLY saw the Queen of SPADES to be passed across the table to the player on my right. However, after the pass when I looked at my hand, the Queen of SPADES magically appeared in my hand !
I had watched closely at previous passings of the Queen and it had always passed correctly. It seems when I am winning too much this type of "cheat" goes on in the programming to keep from winning by a landslide.
So I guess you could look at it as a programming shortcut. See if the human is winning too much ; if yes, give him the queen a few more times ... NO MATTER WHO HAS IT.
Cards are PUT in your hand, not dealt. Played a game earlier where I had seven hearts, A-K-Q-J-4-3-2. Took QS and a heart on the third trick (with the 5D). Figured might as well go for it. Nope. East held all 5 hearts and I took 24. Hands like that are PUT there, the odds of them being dealt are just ridiculous. I had not planned a run because the highest non-heart in my hand was an eight. I had no chance to try to draw more hearts before leading them. I took the QS early with a low card. The hand was set up from the start. Seen way too many instances like this to believe in any semblance of random dealing. These are one-in hundreds of thousands that might occur once in a lifetime, not a couple times a week.
YES!! Without A Doubt, it Cheats! .. Te highest I've gotten is 42. Consistently I am dealt the 2 oc Clubs and 99% of my other cards are 6 and above!... 92% of time I have the king, queen, jack and ace of Queen. 50% I am 'set up' someone plays a 2 diamond -someone the queen of spades and someone the 3 of diamond. My lowest diamond dealt me is 7- so I lose! .. Then it 'Makes' me shoot the moon at times!I can close my eyes and just click on cards.. but I shoot the moon! - I JUST WANT A REAL.. FAIR game! .. win OR lose! - see, the Computer knows ourhnds and the Computer has THREE hands to play with - So, it is like 3 to 1. All of the other 'people' hands is THE COMPUTER!
... from above : Also, what I have recently done is continually 'quit' and reset the statistics. - The Computer understood and started dealing me more fair cards!
That's the way to deal with this cheating piece of crap. Whenever it pulls one of it's bogus ploys and rigs it for you to lose, just flush the game. Red X it, say "Hell no, I don't want to save this game", and start a new game (without it costing you a loss). I've been "force fed" the QS as many as seven times in a row on the first hand. KAWHOOSH! Not putting up with that crap, try again. I'm a stubborn SOB, I can dump games all night long if that's the way ir wants to play it.
Starting with two FACTS.
*It has to be possible to program a true random deal. Just look at all the lotteries, gambling sites, etc.
*If there isn't a true random deal, it is cheating.
I absolutely insist this game does NOT deal cards randomly. All you doubters need to do is a couple simple tests. One of the easiest is keep track of 100 hands. How many times were you dealt the 2H? 25 times? It should have been, basic 3rd grade math. 100 hands not a fair sample? Do 1000. How many hands are you dealt a heart below the 5? You have three chances every single deal, How many times does the bot to your right have the AC? Again, it should be 25% Bet it's more. And yeah, it makes a difference.
Make up your own things to keep track of. See whether any anomalies favor you or harm you. I've posted before that I really don't care HOW the cards are played, just deal them fairly.
It goes further than deals and the like. I have been puzzled from time to time when I have had to lead even though I didn't win the last trick. It has just happened in a most blatant way; I led with the 2Diamonds, two others followed suit with, obviously higher Diamonds, and one threw away (a club I believe), nevertheless, the cards came my way and I had to play first again in order for the game to continue. I received the Queen of Spades on the very next card I played!!
I dont believe there are so many people who have experianced the computer cheating at hearts, when i thought it was me seeing things.That was until tonight when i caught it out playing a spade when i had all the rest of the spades in my hand.so i looked very carefully and noted any discrepenceys and to my horror, you guys are right it does cheat and more regularly than i would have thought, or believed .
Hooray! In the 21st game (since I started counting) I finally drew the 2H three times in one game (should be the norm, given most games are about 12 hands). How about the QS? 20 out of 21 games drawing it (not passed, just dealt) a minimum of three times. 11 games 5 times or more with a high of 9 (in 11 hands). C'mon Mr. Number Generator expert gives us your logarithmic explanation how that works. Also, right at 40% of the hands the lowest heart I drew was at least an 8. Whoever is responible for programing MS Hearts is either lazy, incompetent, or dishonest. My guess is all of the above.
It would be funny if it weren't so pathetic. I think the arrogance is what galls me the most. I think whoever is responsible for the structure of this game assumes the general populace are idiots and won't remember getting hosed over and over, that we will just figure "bad luck" (over and over). But we DO remember. People who are into cars remember what size engine came in a '72 Charger. People into football remember who quarterbacked the '83 Dolphins, etc. Card players remember odd hands, probabilities, etc. That's how you play. If the odds are 4-1 that a certain card will win, over time you will win 80% of the time with that play...except when you get cheated.
Two games - 5 "no-pass" hands. Spade draws
Q-6
A-J
Q
Q-7
Q
If percentages hold up, I shouldn't see another QS on the "hold-em" hand for about 20 games - any bets?
Following the posts on this blog. I'd like to offer a slightly different opinion. Yes, the game is crooked. No, the deals are not random. But, I don't believe the programer doesn't know hearts, or that it's a shallow program. Too many things are built into the program and they basically all make it harder for the human to win.
It's been mentioned many times, but the distribution of the hearts suit is geared to guarantee the human takes several points several times a game. The no-pass hand often nearly guarantees the human takes the QS. Something else I've noticed is the hand to the human's left seems to nearly always be able to duck the lead and the hand to the human's right seems eager and able to take the lead. This is a tremendous disadvatage to the human. With two hands sitting behind you, you're under pressure constantly. Do you take a chance with a high card that might take the tricks (and points)? Or do you play low, thereby holding on to higher cards that may come back to bite you later on. If the hand to your left leads, you get to see all the cards and then decide if you want to take the trick or not. I've long felt the position of the lead was at least as important as the cards you held. Perfect example is the Ace or King of spades. It makes a world of diference whether the lead comes from your left or your right.
Does anyone have any theory WHY the game is so blatantly rigged. I think the evidence is overwhelming that the program obviously cheats, at least in the (cough, gag) "deal". For the life of me I can't come up with a plausible WHY? Any guesses? Anyone?
Just kept track of ten games - 114 hands. Took 4 points with 5H 21 times. Took 3 points with 4H 7 times. Got dealt 2H 11 times and got dealt the QS 42 times. Passed the QS 16 times, got passed the A or K of spades all 16 times (both 7 times). Nice, fair, number generator random deals.
I would not keep a person dishonest like this in my employ. Apologize, Microsoft, and fire this immoral person. I guarantee you he is cheating you also,
I've now drawn lone QS on "no-pass" hand" twice in three games (7 or 8 hands). Please lull me to sleep with another story about random number generators. Incredible (which means NOT credible) odds of that with ANY given card in the deck. How exponential is it happening with THE one card that can inflict the most damage.
In a court of law, I think that would qualify as "beyond reasonable doubt".
Of course it cheats, not even debatable. Throw out everything you know about odds and probabilities. There is no random deals, so the normal probabilities do not exist. learn the new MS probabilities. Such as: if you start a hand with the 5 and queen of clubs, there is about a 50% chance you will take the queen of spades with the5C. Don't discard your A-K of spades or high diamonds, worry about that 5 of clubs. If you have the 5 of hearts there is a 90% chance you will take four hearts with it, not the 10% chance like you've learned playing hearts your whole life. If you win a game, just plan on taking 20 points the first hand of the next game - there is a built in venegance factor.
How's this for a coincidental "deal"? I was leading the chosen bot by 21 pts. The other two bots are sitting at 99 & 97. Along comes the 12th hand, no pass. I get this:
Clubs - A,K,Q,J,10,9
Diamonds - K,Q,10
Spades - K,Q
Hearts - K,2
Love the game of hearts but hate this version. I totally agree with many posts that there is not a random deal. It reminds me a lot of the bridge tips you would see in the newspaper where often the featured deals would be kind of oddball, one in a thousand card distributions. Whoever programed this seems to think it's fuuny or "interesting" to have "one-in-a thousand" distributions pop up every 20 or thirty hands. Of course, the overwhelming majority of these hose the human player.
I am totally sick of the 2.3.4.5 of hearts distributed among the 4 hands, with the human hand holding the 5 at least 60-70% of the time. Not only does it guarantee 4 points, but often leads to many more points. Generally you only have a limited number of "out" cards and the 5H needs to be one of them a majority of the time.
Also totally hate the number of times you have the QS with little or no spade support on "no pass" hands, just an automatic 13 points.
I could go on and on, but I'll pick one more peeve. After you win a game, the first hand of the next game will saddle you with 20+ points almost without fail. It's like you pissed off the program.
73% win percentage through 309 games. Interesting why the game would cheat as it does. I suspect it is too difficult to program a challenging hearts game in the standard way of having the game search for its next move by looking heuristically or exhaustively through the next few plays. Since each trick actually requires decisions by four players each with several cards from which to choose, the complexity of the search would seem to grow too quickly for the game to consider more than a couple of tricks in the future. If this analysis is correct, one way to circumvent the game being hopelessly terrible would be to cheat to keep the win percentage reasonable. However, despite having the clear advantage with nonrandom deals and three hands playing jointly, the computer's lack of artificial intelligence (besides card counting, which is hardly intelligence) prevents it from keeping players at the expected 25% win percentage. Consistent with such an inherent programming difficulty, a freeware smartphone hearts game I play employs the same cheating strategies but corrects its shortcomings at defending moon shooting. Any other thoughts as to why the game cheats as it does (besides lazy and faulty programming which goes without saying for Microsoft)?
The last poster has some valid and thoughtful points, but some of the blatant cheating just pisses me off. Earlier today I was leading comfortably 5,40,60-some, 90-some. Three hands in a row I take QS on 2nd trick. First hand (a hold'em) dealt the QS alone. East has AC (of course) leads spade. 2nd hand, dealt void in spades, get passed the AS, east has AC (of course) leads spade. 3rd hand looks pretty good, no QS, no AS, some low spades and low hearts. 2nd trick spade not led (hmmm) 3C led, 4c, I play 6c (my only club) BAM QS. three hands, 50-some points and "sorry, you lose" Bad luck? NO! That's the third singleton QS on a "no-pass" hand I've had today (about 20 games).
Sh*t like that and the ridiculous "chosen one" games are my biggest peeves.
I must admit I've not read all 1100 posts here, but I haven't seen this addressed. When you click on "Game", then "New Game", one of the options is "Quit and start new game", then in parenthesis -(counts as a loss in your statistics).
What in the hell do they care?!?!? I've swwn this in other games, also. Why on God's green earth would anyone at Microsoft care what your win percentage is? It's your private game, on your computer. Are they afraid you're going to invite friends over and show then how you kick MS Hearts' ass? Or put it on YouTube? Oh, the shame of some dolt in Hoboken pwning the brilliant MS game programer. I've got news for you, your shame is this product.
GOOD question. Who at MS should care?
In the peeves department, I'm so damn sick and tired of seeing K,9 -Q,J,7 - K,Q - J,10,9 - A,J,5 - 9,8,7 etc. in hearts suit hand after hand after hand. Then, of course, you have A,7 - Q,9 - K,Q -Q,2 etc in spades to go along with it. My last game I took at least one heart trick 10 out of 11 hands. Crap, I took 5 points with the 4,6. (9 hearts in one bot's hand.) Why doesn't the game just blink and pop up "you lost this game " after the first deal?
I've had simmaler things happen on Vista, when I'm trying to shoot the moon, the computer lets me but then wins one hand with hearts using a card that's already been played. Or when I'm not, I play a low card, and when other people mathematically must have cards higher, the always pass off the Queen of Spades (Plus some hearts) to me.
Just played an 11-hand game where the lowest heart I drew was a six! That's 0 for 44 on drawing a 2,3,4 or 5! At the same time the "winning" bot had 2H six times. Was it passed to him? If so, that's even worse. I've got $100 to anyone who can replicate that using real cards and a shuffler. I'll even pay for the decks you wore out doing it.
I'm leaning toward MS having a cultrure of corruption. I just started playing "free cell". In less than 60 games I've seen:
> all four aces in the first row
>3 aces and 2 deuces in the first row
> A,2,3,4,5 of diamonds in the first row
> frst three cards all aces
> all four queens in bottom row(s).
I'm guessing these are one in a thousand deals and I've seen all of them in 50-odd games? Once again, cards being "put" in the hand, not dealt. Do they think it's clever? or funny? or are they that damn pathetic?
I haven't played a lot of the MS games, but the ones I have are pretty much the same. They "win" a certain percentage of games by skewing the odds. Hearts and Free Cell are among the worst of games I've played. Free Cell just constantly "deals" aces and dueces in the top row. Or queens in the bottom row and the jacks in the top row, etc.
It has no game other than to cheat via a non-random deal. Lame.
It took 6 "dumps", but, sorry MS, you did NOT win this game and it will NOT count as a loss in my statistics. You can stick it up your ass. When you restart a ga me six times, and get passed the QS six times, somethings definitely rotten. The only person more dishonest than the game programer is the a-hole who claimed to win over 99% with NO cheating, Yeah, right, congressman. I have my doubts that a hearts grandmaster (do they have those?) could win over 90% with the hands EXPOSED! There are games you are FORCED to lose, and it's sure as hell more than a half-percent.
I played in a small hearts tournament last weekend. There were about 50 participants who played 12 games each, moving from table to table to face different opponents each game. It was far from a "pro" or "expert" tourney. Imagine my surprise at what DIDN'T happen. There was a $5 entry and I think the winner got a little over $100. They had small "door prizes" for oddities such as "Daily Double" (two moon shots by one player in a game) that went unclaimed. Another went to the player with the most moon shots, another to lowest score in a game (I think 4 or 5 pts. won it), another for a "Lonesome Lady" (QS as a singleton on a no-pass hand (didn't happen). I took 4 pts. with the 5H three times in 12 games, actually got dealt a 2H about three times per game, took the QS with a 3D or 4C zero times. got passed A,K, QS together zero times. How refreshing to have cards lay kind of according to the laws of probability. Of course there were drawbacks like players holding the queen for the low man, but that worked in your favor if you weren't the low man. I think I finished in the top 10 or 12, but out of the money (top 5).
Just had a FreeCell game. Honest to god, top row was A-A-5-A-A-J-2-2. How many decks of cards would you wear out trying to duplicate that? Where does MS find their programmers...prison? I'm telling you, Microsoft, cheats like this are cheating you, too.
Another piece of enjoyment I got out of playing in the hearts tournament. A brash young fellow held a fistful of spades, passed me the queen, and led it out of me (I was not leading the game). I proceeded to paddle him like he got caught playing with matches. The cards kind of fell right and I busted him in like 4 hands. The rest of the table were amused. After the game an older fellow asked him if he learned anything. The young guy grumbled "It's just part of the game." The older gent said "So was what happened to you."
Yikes, now people are complaining about free cell here? Especially after they dumbed it down and added a full on undo? I've won 600 straight games because of that; back in the old XP days I was happy to get 90%. Free cell is one of the great uSoft successes; and there is plenty of literature about it by VERY smart people, and NOBODY complains about the deals. So if you are, you're not very bright.
Those of you who are complaining about the deals don't understand that 'random' doesn't mean 'evenly distributed'. If it did, we wouldn't exist, because stars and galaxies would never have formed.
Who knows, maybe somewhere some being is complaining about the how could it be possible that such whining, complaining, unreasonable and just plain stupid beings could have been created in their universe; obviously the creator is cooking the deals.
And why doesn't anyone complain about how stupid the opponents are? Plenty of people win 60+%; my level of incompetence seems to be about 62% (although I'm 33/50 on my brand new windows 7 box).
I think you guys have other issues you should deal with instead of bitching about hearts.
In the meantime, thanks Mrs. B for a fine log, you're a lovely person.
The last post asked, "Why doesn't anyone complain how stupid the opponents are?" I think that is basically what most everyone IS saying. The individual bots do NOT play to win and the overall ability of the game is so poor that rigging card distributions is the only way the programer could make the game "interesting" or "competitive".
Maybe "random" isn't the right word, how about "fair", "honest", or "legitimate"?
As simply as I can put it. If your life, freedom, or paycheck was on the line, being determined by you NOT drawing the QS on one deal, do you want this game making that deal?
The last post asserted that the deals were cooked but provided no evidence that they are. Oh wait, there was that guy who had that statistics class...
Evidence or not, I know enough about odds and gambling to know which bets I'd take and which ones I wouldn't. I'll sit with anyone, anytime, all day long & bet a dollar, $10, hell, $100 on the 2H vs. 5H on MS hearts. Every hand a 2H is dealt, I pay you, every time a 5H is dealt, you pay me. Should be a straight-up, 50-50 chance, right? right?
Edit to last post. Meant to say 2H or 5H dealt to HUMAN hand. The offer stands, though. All you "MS deals are fair, random, whatever" protagonists out there, come on down. According to you, you stand an even chance of winning. Name the stakes, play as long as you like. I pay when human hand draws 2H, you pay on the 5H.
I've got an even quicker road to retirement. The odds of being dealt a particular card on a given hand are one in four, right? That equates to 3-to-1 odds. So...Mr. Randon Deal guy, On "hold-em' hands I'll pay you $100 every time I DON"T get the QS, you pay me $300 every time I do. I'll be in Bermuda by first snowfall.
Mea Culpa on the Free Cell complaint. A friend told me the games aren't intended to be "random deals", but, in fact, pre-picked hands. He said originalyy there were 30,000 or so games, but now in the 100sK. He also said nearly all are solvable, but it may take several tries. Don't know why they keep won-loss pct. based on your "first try" then, but whatever.
Game is a piece of sh*t and so is anyone associated with it. Only "strategy" it has is to cheat and position cards to make human lose. No doubt a competent player wins over 90% if deal isn't rigged. Too bad, could be a lot better game I think game description should have to state that deals aren't random and some games will be made extremely difficult. By pretending deals are random, it just pisses you off when you get obviously hosed. epic fail.
I just caught it straight-up cheating. I knew the player to the left didn't have any spades left when he threw a heart during a spade deal. Two deals later he threw the King of Spades. That is bold faced cheating!
I had a game a couple days ago that I would call cheating (especially with the constant crap of this farce of a game). I was trailing "the chosen one" by a few points and the other two bots were both in the ninties. I FINALLY managed to lay the QS on the chosen one. I had the lead with several high diamonds, the 3 & 4 of hearts and the 4C, hearts hadn't been broken. I decided to lead the diamonds:
A> to run everybody out
B> to draw a heart to prevent a run
C> to break hearts and duck the lead with my small hearts.
East sloughed twice and north three times with NO HEART PLAYED. I finally had to lead the 4C. West took the trick, easily ran the table for a moonshot, busted the two patsies and "won" the game. What a crock.
Yes, Carl, that would qualify as cheating in my book. I have no problem with holding points to try and load up the low man, but I can only think of one instance where it would be acceptable to aid a moon shot, a high man is trying to shoot the moon, you are more than 26 points ahead of him and leading the game. It is never acceptable to aid a moon shot and enable that player to win (unless it's maybe a little kid.)
Glad to see my obsession with this game is shared by so many people. I've played well over 1,000 games on Vista where I had a winning percentage of 62. After 892 games on Windows 7, I'm at 57%. My best tip is if you're trying to shoot the moon, and it becomes obvious you have one losing card in your hand, play it 2nd to last. Apparently the computer is programmed to consistently duck that hand, so your losing card is now a winner, and so are you.
I played about 10-12 games this morning and the game was the absolute worst I've ever seen it, and I've seen it pretty damn bad. One game I took QS with 3H twice. Another game six hands in a row being dealt no heart lower than the 9. The worst was this one:
Hand 1 (pass left) dealt singleton QS. Passed it, got passed the AS.
Hand 4> (hold 'em) dealt singleton QS.
Hand 5> (pass left) dealt void in spades, got passed the QS.
Hand 9> (pass left)got dealt singleton AS, got passed QS.
Last game, got dealt 5H as lowest heart last 5 hands in a row. Took four hearts with it three times.
Anyone who could possibly conclude there is any kind of randomness to the deals is out of their freaking mind.
A few people have pointed to a computer player leading the Queen of Spades, when there are only two other Spades left - a higher one and a lower one. The two other Spades were split and the higher Spade therefore takes the Queen.
Cheat !! they cry ! How did the computer player know the two remaining Spades were split ? If another player held both, then it would be committing suicide ! No human player would take that risk - it must know the other hands and be cheating !!
Well, let's do a bit of statistics shall we. Let's assume North has the Queen, and it knows (from legitimate counting) that the King and nine are out there. There are 3 possible dangerous scenarios - East has both the King and the nine; South has them; or West has them.
On the other hand, there are 6 beneficial scenarios - East has the King and South the 9; East has the King and West the 9; South King, West 9; South King, East 9; West King, South 9; West King, East 9.
So leading the Queen of Spades is going to drop it on another player two thirds of the time in that situation.
That's legitimate tactics (if you don't take the opportunity, another player might get the chance to drop the King of Spades in a later play) - definitely not proof of cheating.
I've never really had an issue with the QS lead, I've done it myself. If I have lone QS and 4 clubs, four diamonds and figure odds are pretty slim of voiding a suit before a spade is led, I'll toss it out hoping to catch a lone A or K.
One ploy that does concern me happened again this morning. East takes first trick and leads 3C. I play 6C (my lowest) West plays 4C, North dumps QS. I watched the remainder of the hand closely. East ended up having 4 spades between th 4 and 10. North only had one other spade and was in deep doo-doo. The first trick was normal - 2C, 10C, QC, AC. What made East lead the 3C instead of a spade like 90% of the time (closer to 99% when I hold the QS)? Just an incredible hunch, I guess. Sometimes I can understand it. If someone showed void in clubs on the first trick or played very low, like that may be their only club. Or if East had a spade problem (like KS or AS and very few other spades.) This wasn't the case, here. Just out of the blue East tossed out 3C, North "happened" to be void and "happened" to have QS, and I "happened" to have to take the trick. I was in a tight race with "the chosen one" (North) and this just blew me out of the water.
This type of scenario pops up often enough to NOT be random. Also, I've never seen this play nail another bot with the QS.
Watch how often a non-spade is led when one of the bots holds the QS compared to when you hold it.
Hand # 12 Leading the chosen one by 3 pts. Other bots at 99 (quite coincidentally- just one more chance) and 96. Get dealt singleton QS. Wow! what a fortunate "random" deal!
Again I ask WHY?!? Why is it so g-damn important for this SOB to make you lose? Somebody at MS needs to explain...NOW!
Holy crap! What an awful game!
Years ago, a small group of us got together a couple evenings a month to play hearts. There were 5 of us. If all 5 showed up, we played 15 games, everyone sitting out one game out of five. If only four showed up, we played 12 games. We played for nominal amounts. The player who busted paid the low score a quarter each game. All scores were recorded and tallied at end of the evening. Each player paid the low overall score a nickel a point. That way there was incentive for each player to play out each hand of each game. Even if you couldn't "win" a certain game, you could try to stay close and improve your overall standing. A "big" night might win or lose someone $6 or $8. Most nights ended up +/- a buck or two.
I would love to play against this game under those rules. I almost never bust and I'm generally 50+ points ahead of at least two bots when I win. In our game,it was uncommon for the evening's winner to be 100+ pts. better than "last place". I'd be surprised if I didn't end up 300+ ahead of all three of the bots. That's what is so stupid about their little "sorry, but you lost this game". No, I finished three points behind the low score, and I'm going to beat him by 70 next game.
Some other examples of bias:
Pay attention to how many times one hand will have almost all of the spades. So if you get passed the queen and you have three other spades, that hand will get control and just keep bleeding you until the queen is forced. I would say this may happen as much as 40-50% of the time.
In order to prevent you shooting, one hand usually holds back on the ace of diamonds. This is very common. Yet notice how few times this card ever gets passed or dealt to your hand. Very uncommon.
If you get dealt or passed the queen of spades, notice how aggressively the other hands lead spades to force you. Yet if you pass the queen or it is dealt to the other hands, this strategy seems to disappear.
After the first or second round, notice how the hand with the highest score becomes a sacrificial lamb for the hand with the lowest score. In most of the games I've played over 20 years, I'm almost always neck and neck with the lowest hand, while the other two are over 50 after four or five rounds.
As an aside, can anyone explain how it is possible that I have, on two occasions, won the game with four consecutive shoots (0-104-104-104)? I'm not a great player by any means, although much better against the computer than against humans. But I seriously doubt if that has ever happened when humans are playing.
A while back I commented that Free Cell didn't seem to be randomly dealt, much like MS Hearts and got blasted for it. I've since found out Free Cell is NOT random deals, but rather games generated by a program designed to produce games of varying difficulty, but all(?) solvable. I've played Free Cell for a while now (approx. 200 games). I'm becoming convinced that MS Hearts is designed the same way. I believe a program was designed to produced maybe a few hundred thousand hands (compared to the billions possible). A disproportionate of those hands are set to virtually ensure the human hand takes the QS or a number of hearts. Also a disproportionate amount of "good" hands are assigned to "the chosen one." I don't know what triggers it, but sometimes those "bad hands" for the human bunch up, ensuring a loss. Two recent games support this. One game I took 10-13 hearts 5 times. Another game I held A-K of spades (with never more than two kickers) five times in 11 hands. I've been dealt lone QS as many as three times in a game, and recently had the 5H as my low heart 22 times in a 6 game span. These hands are not dealt, they're generated by a programed designed to do so.
Last post sounds like a valid speculation. A lot of times a "strategy" by the computer will play out over and over. Like being deal no heart lower than a 5 or 7 for 10 hands of a 12 hand game. Or being dealt zero or one spade and being passed the queen. Recent game I took three hearts with the 4H and 6 hearts with the 4H and 7H in the span of 5 hands.
I've played thousands of games and there are undeniable skewing of statistical probabilities designed to hinder the human player.It's no accident that East has the AC well over the 25% probability. Having the lead to your right is a great handicap. Also no accident the QS resides in the hand to your left an undue percentage of the time. Or you hold the 5H while the other 3 hands hold 2.3,4. Try keeping track of the number of points you take while passing left, right, across, and holding. Think that's an accident. I tracked over 500 games and took over 55% of my points on the hold 'em hand. Pretty simple to deal you weak in spades with the A, K, or Q, or saddle you with 7, J, Q of hearts and virtually guarantee 10+ pts. The no-pass hand should be the absolute closest to a 1/4 split of points there is. There's no chance for a collusion in the pass, no advantage or disadvantage to a player's strength or weakness in making adept passes, less chances of ridiculous suit distributions, etc.
Also pay attention to "the chosen one". Notice that it's seldom East? Why? Because it is easier for the human to target the player directly to his right. If your holding a no-threatened QS & can hold it to dump on someone, West about has to lead for you to ensure he takes the trick. With East as a target, you can see what he's played when any bot leads.
Watch for things like how many times the bot hands take 5, 4, 3, 2 of hearts compared to you. That should be a straight up 25% split. Is it? How about the number of times you and West hold the QS compared to North and East? Should be 50-50 (actually a little less with me because I hardly ever pass QS left) Is it? How many times are you dealt 0, 1, or 2 clubs compared to spades? Should be dead even. Is it? Having few spades is a definite handicap. If you have A, K, or Q it's tough to defend. Even if you don't have the big spades, having very few spades limits your opportunities to lead the QS out of one of the bots and makes it more likely you'll end up taking it with another suit. How often are spades led when you hold the Q? How often when you don't? Again, should be dead even. How often do you see a bot take the QS with 3 or 4 of diamonds or clubs? Do you have a heart lower than the 5 75% of the time? You should.
Every single skewed probability is slanted against you...and I believe purposely so.
Just played 6 games (67 hands). Kept track of a few things.
Singletons put in my hand (no, not dealt) QS, KH, 5C, QS, QS, AS, 9S, 7D, QS.
Void suits > spade, spade, spade, club, heart, heart, spade.
Lowest heart 5 or higher > 36
Hands with QS > 26
West holding QS > l9
East holding AC > 23
One stat I forgot to mention. Spade was led on trick #2 24 of 26 times I held QS. Spade was led on trick #2 23 of 41 times (8 times by me) a bot held QS. Wonder why?
Just looked up distribution probablity of drawing all four aces on the deal...378 to 1. I drew all four aces 3 times in a 10-hand game last nite. And no, that is not advantageous...duh.
Just had an 11-hand game where I was "dealt" 4 aces three times. One hand was A-K in all four suits. I've probably drawn all four aces 10 times in my last 25 games (300 hands or less). Does anyone out there think642 fTvid I'd be drawing like that if it were a benefit for me?
In Microsoft Hearts, I maintain a win percentage of 54% which goes up a little and down a little. I used to have a percentage of around 38% until I noticed several things. One is that you can play a more sophisticated game by counting cards or getting a feel for how many have been played in each suit, not just spades, and you can improve odds of getting rid of hearts if you take the first heart trick with your highest heart. But also I think the game cheats and in this way. It actualy awards smart play by giving you better cards and punishes poor play by giving you worse cards. It especially punishes you if you have the makings of a moon shot and don't take it. If you try a plausible moon shot and fall short, it gives you better cards. I think it cheats in the most insidious way, namely, that it actually 'redeals' the other three hands during play. Another thing it does is pass cards that no one in a real game would pass, like a low heart or two from someone who is not thinking of shooting the moon to someone who is discarding to try a moon shot. But if you figure out who is trying a moonshot early and if you figure out who is just trying to escape the lead with as few hearts as possible, I think you can get your sverage above 50% pretty easily.
Talk about crappy programming! I'm at 90% win percentage (18 of 20 games on a computer I just upgraded to Windows 7 ultimate). The statistics, however, list 89% as the win percentage. I never cease to be amazed at what passes for programming at Microsoft.
Hi, I last posted in September 2010 pointing out that hearts cheats, and NOT referring to the bot ganging up players against you, but breaks the rules, i.e. you have 12 hearts, last suit you lead and lay an unbeatable Q of Spades to pick the remaining heart up, and the program lets you get beat, and instead of you getting 26 and shooting the moon, you get 12 and the player oppsite gets 14.
Well, just to update you all, I have windows 7 now, and the program still does EXACTLY the same. When it suits it, it will break the rules to stop you winning. Thanks ROLO for the 8 'unsolvable' freecell games numbers. I'll take a look.
Dave
All the times I've played I've never seen it do this. I keep watching for it, though!
I just saw proof that the game cheats! I threw a spade and only the player to my left played another spade. The other two players put down hearts. Later on during the hand the player to my right played a spade!
I am going to try and take a video of it cheating to prove this once and for all. I'll have to video each game until it does it.
Those of you that keep saying you pass off all your spades then get passed the A,K, or Q of spades, the solution is to not try to void in spades. Keep low spades so that when spades go around you have something to play that won't catch the queen.
Why would uou pass a low spade? ONLY time would be to set up a run. The true CHEAT of this game is that there is NO random deal. Set hands are placed in the four hands. It's just like FreeCell, predetermined hands.
It definitely cheats. I've never noticed any focus on a certain win percentage. Indeed, knowing that it cheats, if I concentrate particularly hard, I can generally win almost all the time. However, I'm not playing hearts then. I'm predicting what stupid, criminally incorrect move one computer player will make, giving another computer player the opportunity to hammer me. In other words, the 3 computer players definitely play as a team. You can see this particularly well when one computer player gets up to a high score, like 80 on the first few hands, then magically couldn't take another point if it wanted to for the next 6 rounds as the other two players start sucking up any points that can't be foisted on the human. Coupled with the blatantly stupid card throws, like breaking with the ace of hearts on the queen of spades with only 4 or 5 rounds left in the hand while holding only low hearts and it would have to be obvious that you aren't playing the game hearts. You are playing against a team of 3 trying to deny you a win. Hardly fun or entertaining for long. If the other players were humans, they couldn't find anyone willing to play with them to save their lives.
Seven times in two games (22 hands) I take 3 points with the 4H. Pure BS.
It definitely cheats. I've had games where I was either dealt or passed the queen of spades or the ace AND king of spades on every single hand, obviously the chances of this happening by chance are astronomical.
It's easy to see, if you have the queen, pass her, you'll get the Ace and King.
If you have the Ace and King and pass them, you'll get the queen.
If, on the off chance you don't have the queen, it's in the West position, and will come out the second you play anything other than a spade and the other two positions will have lower cards then yours, even if it means the both play a 3 and a 2.
The only reason to play this game is essentially the challenge of beating a team, and a cheating dealer.
Game cheats...and still loses ! Bwahahahahaa !!
Played a game that lasted eight hands earlier, once again had either the queen of spades or the ace AND king of spades dealt or passed to me on 7 out of 8 hands, one hand I was passed all three.
Managed to dodge the queen until the very last hand of the game I was a few points behind the winning bot and I took the queen of spades with the FOUR OF DIAMONDS when north and east both played 3 and 2 AND took another four points with the Five of hearts later in the game thanks to the cutesy play which popped up another two times prior to that in the same game.
Had a score of zero going into the fifth hand of a game and was dealt the ENTIRE spades suit minus King and 4. Figured I would have an easy moon shoot as I also had the Ace of hearts, but when I lead the ace of spades, East played the FOUR instead of the king (it ended up having both) which there is absolutely no reason for it to do so when it could have played the king and avoided the queen, unless of course it knew what cards I was holding.
So instead of a moon shoot, I took 25 points when East played the king later to pick up the three of hearts and take a single point.
You can't really call this card counting, it's cheating, because the bot's method of card counting involves it knowing what cards are in its three hands, and so therefore also knowing your hand and what to play to win. It is the only explanation for this.
Now, it doesn't always DO this, the computer seems to destine a winner at the beginning of the game, and when it decides it's time for you to lose, you lose, and hard.
If YOU are the destined winner, then no matter what you do, you can't pick up points, but more often than not it's a bot.
Believe me, I've seen this stuff a lot. Totally believe there are games predetermined to make you lose. Why didn't you lead QS after you didn't draw the king? Worst case, you take 13 hearts. If anything besides a heart is led back, dump the AH and take zero.
I just got pissed off and played stupid after I saw that happen, you're right I should have led the queen on the third hand.
Played a game just now where I was dealt singleton queen, king, and ace of spades on every no pass hand, and sure enough I took the queen three times, had her led on the SECOND TRICK both times I held only ace or king.
I have NEVER seen the queen led on the second trick in this game unless I am holding a singleton ace or king.
Seems like I was the designated 'patsy' of that game, because I managed to take the queen TWICE with the three of diamonds and once with the four of clubs in addition to the bullshit I mentioned with the no pass hands.
To all the idiots who think that this game isn't cheating-
The odds of you receiving the Queen of Spades on 5 consecutive hands is less than 1%, do the math yourself, if you're half the card players you claim to be it shouldn't be hard.
Now, this should happen once every 100 games, instead I will see the QS in my hand 7 to 8 times PER GAME, whether by pass or draw, I do not have a game pass where I don't hold the queen at LEAST 4 or 5 times
This isn't even getting into the odds of you repeatedly being dealt ONLY the KQA of spades, or BOTH KA of spades
If you think that this isn't cheating, then I am begging you, I want you over the next time we play hearts. There are a couple of nice bridges around here I'd like to sell you as well.
To everyone with a win rate of over ~50%, let's see some pictures, because I don't believe you at all. There are simply too many hands that are literally impossible to win with dealt no matter how brilliant a card counter you are.
73% win percentage through 693 games on win7 ultimate. The screenshot is here: mshearts.png. The secret, as many have commented, is to assume the cheating will occur and alter your gameplay to take advantage of this. Another very strange aspect of the game I have noticed is that it targets me for destruction less frequently if I wait a long time between games. I don't have an exact time interval nailed down, but it sure seems crazy!
well, you showed me.
How do you deal with being dealt single KQA of spades? I am losing repeatedly because I don't have a game pass where I don't take the queen 4-5 times due to this.
I'm not passing ANY spades, I am being dealt void and then passed only KQA, or being dealt KQorA and no protectors, passing those, and then picking up either queen or another face card on the pass.
My KQA gets forced on the second or third trick, and I take the queen. How do you avoid this happening over and over?
I used to have a definite strategy, but now it is quite hard to nail down. I try to pass any card that will get me the queen of spades unless I have four spades and unless I am passing to the left. I also try to pass all clubs or all diamonds if this is not possible so I can have no cards of at least one suit to get rid of any card that can get me the queen of spades. I realize that it would take too much space to outline everything here, but I cannot stress enough that you must assume that you are being set up in the worst possible way. This actually gives you a pretty good idea of what your opponents cards are. Card counting is extremely important, and indeed, as mentioned previously, the game tends to 'reward' situations where you win hands based on card counting. It has also been crucial (at least for me) to wait plenty of time between games (sometimes a whole day) to achieve a win percentage over 70%. I believe I can get the percentage much higher, but I like to try to get back at the game immediately when it cheats especially obviously (which is a really bad strategy).
I quit trying to void suits because it seems like whenever I do the comp punishes me by handing me the three highest cards of whatever suit I'm trying to void.
If I try to void clubs, I get AK or 2 of clubs passed to me, same with diamonds. Just more cheating, because the only time I get passed these suits is inevitably when I'm trying to void them.
If I try to void a singleton QS, I without fail get KA, but if I keep her, then I don't get passed ANY spades
I swear the computer doesn't determine what cards it's passing you until after you've already selected yours
When the computer starts to cheat really badly, it does become nearly impossible to win. I should point out I'm playing on Win 7 ultimate, which is the easiest of the hearts games I've played, vista being noticably more difficult. I suppose part of my strategy is avoiding situations where the computer seems to become 'upset'. This involves meticulous card counting and knowing when and when not to shoot the moon. Often I have somewhat discouraged the computer from very aggressive cheating by shooting the moon when it starts passing me a lot of high cards. Note that the computer is rather hilariously poor at preventing you from shooting the moon. Lastly, playing the game very infrequently seems to be one of the most successful strategies. I'm not sure if this phenomenon only exists in Win 7 ultimate, but I'm surprised I haven't heard it mentioned here (though I have seen people write that you should always exit the game rather than click on play again).
Why does everyone feel the need to be apologetic when ranting and writing a straight-ahead, no-frills article? I certainly appreciated it. I noticed the same exact thing happens to me. If you really lose bad, you get a "sympathy" round, which is even more pathetic. I like randomness to stay random.
I now fully understand why they shot card cheats in the old west. God, how I'd love to plop the moron who programed this game dowm at a table with Doc Holliday and Wild Bill.
I see there are cheats to find out what the other bots get, and what they pass. I wish there was a cheat to find out how the deck is stacked, because I think that the deck is stacked (in their favor) at least 98% of the time.
I think it's just like "Free Cell
". There are maybe a couple million "deals" programed into the game (compared to the billions of possible random deals). An unnaturally high number of "bad deals" are programed in, which produces grossly skewed probabilities. How many times is the 5H your lowest heart? compared to the 2H?
I just finished (actually dumped) a game where I got the "lucky hunch" pulled on me three times in 8 hands. The "lucky hunch" is where one of the bots takes the first trick and, instead of leading a spade, leads 3C, next bot plays 4C, next bot drops the QS and you have to take the trick. 13 points down two cards into the hand. A couple days ago I got "cutsied" on the first hand six games in a row.
One more thing to watch. Odds say you should be dealt all four aces about once in 400 hands.
Can someone explain why the game is programed to INSIST you lose? I was leading 14-47-91-82. Next hand I held 3D, 5D, 10D. North took 1st trick then led 2D, followed by JH, my 3D, QS. Next hand east takes 1st trick, leads 2D, I play 3D (lowest of 5 diamonds in my hand) folled by AS, QS. Next hand (no pass) I'm dealt lone QS. Three hands, 47 points and I lose. Congrats MS programer, you're truly a genius.
Solitaire is rigged too.
In over 300 games of vegas style, 1 card draw, I have only won 10.
Frequently, I will start the game with multiples of the same card as the face up card on my stacks, ie,
3 sevens and 2 queens, etc. Happens far too often for it to be random, almost every game is this way. Then, inevitably, a six or jack never turns up.
This is intended to limit you right off the bat, because you are stuck waiting on a single card that you can play to come up, which it frequently never does.
I will also frequently pass three or four even of the same card in the draw stack back to back as soon as the game starts, which pretty much forces a loss right away because once you pass them, you reach a certain point and get stuck.
Another common one is to have all four of a card in a stack, ie, I have had games where all four jacks have ended up in the same stack, which almost always renders the game unwinnable.
Much like hearts, these patterns are made even less random by the fact that they are just that, patterns.
I know it isn't that I'm terrible at solitaire, because I used to win a fair bit playing this way in XP.
What I'd really like to know is WHY these games are programmed to make you lose, is it as some sort of joke, or is it just "innocent" bad programming?
There's nothing "innocent" about it. It's either ineptitude or dishonesty or both. Last three games of MS Hearts on Windows 7 on the "hold-em" hands I've gotten: AS, JS
QS
QS, 6S
QS, JS, 9S
AS, KS
KS, QS
KS
QS, 7S
QS
AS, QS
Simple odds say I should get 32 or 33 spades over 10 hands. I got 18. I should have gotten the QS no more than 3 times. I got it 7 times. Think it's just "bad luck" that you're dealt the worst card double the amount of times, with about half the "protecters" you should get?
Cheats, yes.. although I'm not sure it's the best word to describe it.
I'm sure the comments have gone over all the ways it does cheat (for example, you will take the Qs with cards like 4d, 5c in the second trick).
However, the most annoying way it "cheats" in my opinion is-
If you're on, let's say, 10 points, West on 20 points, North on 7 points, and East on 45 points... In the subsequent rounds, East will appear to be trying to take all the points but not shoot the moon. It seems as if East tries to race to 100 as to prevent North from surpassing you, preventing you therefore from winning.
The game is programmed to be increasingly difficult to win with all these subtle "cheats". If you're on a winning streak, then you will be dealt rotten hands, and passed rotten cards.
There is a way to get around this.
As the game gets increasingly difficult to win, it also becomes easier to shoot the moon. If you are adept at recognising when it's best to shoot (the computer gets a bit predictable with its card passing), then you will be able to maintain a winning percentage of over 50%. Mine is currently 68% after roughly 700 games.
I was on roughly 56% after 1000 games before I reset stats.
I've said before that win % isn't my main concern. It's being forced to lose games you shouldn't, like earlier tonight. I'd been getting hosed the whole game, taking 4 pts. with the 5H, lone QS on hold-em hand, etc. I managed to fight back and had a 10 point lead late in the game. Hand #12 (no pass) I got dealt:
clubs - 2,3.5,6
diamonds - 10
spades - 4,5,8
hearts - 3,4,6,8,9
I was pleased because I was very likely to take zero points and one of the bots was likely to bust. I led 2C, east had AC. East led back 2D, I played my lone 10, and BAM, QS. I took 13. The "chosen one" took zero, of course, and I lose by 3. THAT"S the kind of horsesh*t that just pisses me off !!! I can't even fathom the odds of two hands holding 12 diamonds between them (on a no-pass hand), The hand that was void in diamonds holding the QS, AND east leading a diamond, just on a hunch.
Very poor program. Skill at hearts, like many card games, relies on one's knowledge of probabilities. When those probabilities are thrown out the window, like MS Hearts does, it becomes an exercise in futility.
When you play a card, based on your knowledge that it has a 90% probability of success, you simply cannot adjust to a 30% or 40% chance that this game has. When this kind of dishonesty is at play, it affects the laws of probability for every card, every play. Total failure, in my opinion.
I have won 200 out of 283 games, which is a 70.67% winning percentage, in the Windows 7 version of the game. Maximum winning and losing streaks so far are 17 and 5, respectively. I think my winning percentage was well over 80% in the Vista version of the game. Does the game cheat? No, it follows a simple program that's easy to beat.
I've been able to maintain a 73% win percentage for 763 games (win 7 ultimate), but have had great difficulty trying to improve on it. I agree with the previous post that the strategy the game uses is easy to beat most of the time, but the game cheats very badly and obviously the other 27% of the time, which is extremely frustrating and nearly caused me to break my keyboard in half yesterday. I'm very near deleting this awful game so that it no longer wastes my time or continues to encourage the obamanous strategies I've developed, which would surely cause me to lose terribly playing with normal card probabilities.
Do the game cheat? Absolutely! If the deals aren't random, it's cheating! I have kept track for hundreds of games. Every single one of the anomalies is detrimental the the human player. I get dealt the QS 2.6 times as often as the 2H. Why? Every single card has the exact same probalitiy as any other card. I've gone 27 consective hands without being dealt the 2H. My personal record for consecutive hands without being dealt the QS is FIVE. That's just slightly over the AVERAGE, which should be three. I have been dealt QS on 16 consecutive hold 'em hands.
If the laws of probability apply (which they don't), I shouldn't see another singleton QS on a hold 'em hand for at least 10,000 games.
Forget about w/l %. Pay attention to the card distributions.
I've tried a few people's advice about attempting to shoot the moon more frequently, and it worked, at first.
But, now the computer seems to have adjusted to my strategy, probably because my win percentage went up.
Now, I still get dealt phenomenally bad hands, seeing a single QS or KA that gets forced in probably 3-4 hands of the game, usually in the last few hands as I take no points in the first few.
I am frequently dealt all of the high cards in a suit minus one, usually 10 or Jack. I will run the table, knowing full well that the 10 or Jack is out there, and trying to play as strategically as possible to flush it out so I can save the lower cards for the last hand.
But, it never works. The hand that holds the jack or ten also ALWAYS has just enough low cards of that suit to play that it can save the jack or ten for the last hand.
The other two positions throw off, and the suit that I am using to run, the one that I am dealt all high cards in minus one, is ALWAYS split between me and one other position.
If I play my high cards early, it throws low cards on them, if I try to save them for the last hand and play even a single "low" card early, out comes the jack or ten, it picks up two points, I take 24. It will do this even if it can dodge the points.
Ie, I have Ace, Queen, Nine left.
If I play the Ace or Queen, it throws lower, if I play the nine, it will pick it up even if it can avoid it. If I play Ace Queen to try to flush out the ten/jack, it will always magically have just enough cards to hang onto that jack/ten until the last trick.
I wouldn't complain about this strategy in a fair game, what makes it unfair is the uneven dealing of the cards to prevent a moonshot and maximize the number of points you take.
another common thing is that whenever I have a hand that is moonshot material a bot inevitably ends up being void and throws a single heart on another bot on the second or third trick of the game, and I end up trying to unload my high cards as fast as I can and usually still end up taking an obscene amount of points.
again, an acceptable strategy, were it not for the fact that it ONLY happens when I have positioned myself for a moonshot.
if I have the queen and am running the table against my will, they will NEVER break hearts on me, and I end up running out of cards and being forced to play the queen
The computer definitely knows your hand and plays accordingly.
Yeah, isn't it amazing how you nearly always take 4 pts. with the 5H, but if you're trying to shoot the moon and have a 8H or 10H, inevitably one of the bots will have a lone QH and take the trick? If you desparately need NOT to take points with say a lone 8H, you have about a 1% chance for that.
Wow, just had an absolutely amazing one happen to me.
Was in second place, a few points behind the lead, had managed to shoot the moon and come back from fourth place. All I needed was to hang four or five points on West to win.
Then, on what turned out to be the final hand of the game, on the fourth of fifth trick, West, the first place position, mysteriously led the Queen of spades even though there were still plenty of low spades out, and I didn't hold the King or Ace
North, who had 85 points, picked it up with the King of spades, EVEN THOUGH IT TURNED OUT HE COULD HAVE DODGED IT WITH OTHER LOW SPADES AND WAS NOT SHOOTING THE MOON.
He went on to pick up Four hearts, busted, and I lost even though I took no points that hand.
So basically, North DELIBERATELY busted to end the game then so that I wouldn't have a chance to win
I had a similar experience. I was in 2nd place, late in the game. I was dealt a lone AS. I had no choice but to pass it to the bot with the high score. TWICE during the hand, spades were led and he was last to play and could have safely dumped the ace. He didn't, ended up taking the queen and busted, with me still in 2nd.
I hadn't played for a couple weeks. Tonight I started a game. First hand I'm dealt void in spades and passed the queen. I didn't even bother to lead the 2C, I just dumped the game and went to browse the football bowl game predictions.
another stunning come from behind loss-
going into the 9th hand, had 12 points, all three bots were in the eighties.
then, took the queen on the second/third trick with low diamonds/clubs five times in a row in addition to eating four points with 5h several times, bots split remaining points amongst themselves, last hand was dealt a phenomenal hand with all low cards, figured I would still squeak out a win, but nope, other bots force fed North a shot that I couldn't stop, and I lost.
I went to delete the game, and you can't even delete it!
Lost 3 of 4 games tonite. First one north shot the moon to beat me 47-48, while east hit 100 exactly.
Second one I lost 20-21, 16 of my points came on 4 cutesy plays (5H taking 4 pts.) and "chosen one" took zero pts last 6 hands.
Last game I was dealt Q-6, Q, and Q-J of spades on the three no-pass hands.
I've been playing MS Hearts on Windows 7 and at first it seemed pretty easy to maintain a win percentage of over 70%, but, as other posters have noticed, the program appears to give you the worst possible hands an unbelievably high percentage of times. I've reset my stats a number of times and it always follows the same pattern.
At the moment i'm at 58% after over 2300 games, but, it's becoming harder to keep it at that level. Even "shooting the moon", which worked pretty well as an out earlier, fails regularly now,as one of the other hands nearly always seems to hold 6 or 7 of a suit and refuses to play it's high until it can thwart you.
Never mind. I still enjoy the game, and, as you can see from my screenshot http://s15.postimage.org/xbaoyy397/Capture.jpg
i have renamed my opponents well.
I've been playing for days now and have never won a game. The computer is rigged that way. Funny how I always end up getting screwd.
Yet another "amazing" comeback for the genius programer. I was in the mid-30's, all the bots were in the 80's. Hand #12, I get "dealt" lone QS plus 9,J of hearts, end up with 21 pts. Next hand, East shoots the moon and I end up losing by 1 pt.
The game before, I was "dealt" 23 spades in 11 hands and passed the QS 6 times.
Recently I was at a friend's house and he used the "debug" menu to reveal all the hands in Hearts. We played about 20 games and noticed so very interesting things.
*The bots made no fruitless passes among themselves. ie. pass three high diamonds and get three high diamonds in return.
*The bots passed "lower than queen" spades A LOT, which is why you get led at 4, 5, 6 times
*The bots DO pass low hearts that creates "cutesy plays". About once a game a bot with, say, 2 & 3 of hearts would pass on of them to another bot setting up 2,3,4,5 of hearts, of course the human held the 5. There is absolutely no strategic reason for this other than to "cheat" the human.
*The bots pass low cards to the "chosen one", even to the detriment of their own hand, another blatant "cheat".
Even with the advantage of seeing all the cards, we still lost about 5 games out of the approximately 20 we played. There was simply no way to overcome the rigged deals and passing cheats in several of the games.
Your are complaining about losing 5 of 20 games? Get real. Play 20 games with any 3 friends and see if you can win 10 games.
I agree however, that the game is easy to beat. I have been able to beat most versions about 63% of the time. Currently, I have a 70% success rate against the Windows 7 version of hearts.
Don't whine about the 2345 of hearts trick. Take advantage of it.If you have the 5 & J of hearts lead with the 5. If you take the trick then play the J. If you take this trick you might be able to shoot the moon. The windows 7 version is not smart and does not try to stop a run.
You might take a trick once in awhile with the 5H, so take advantage of it and quit complaining. This game is easier than playing humans.
We lost 5 of 20 games while SEEING everyone's cards. We knew what we were being passed, where the QS was, etc., and STILL lost. Because we couldn't overcome the blatant cheats some of the time.
It's not losing that irks me, it's HOW you lose. Let's say your're playing three humans, and every 4th hand (hold-'em), "Bill", instead of shuffling, turned the deck over and picked out cards for everyone. "Bill" doesn't like you, so you get hosed. Even though you outplayed everyone, those hands Bill "dealt" caused you to lose. Well, that is exactly how MS Hearts "plays" the game and "beats" you.
Oh yeah, good luck with shooting the moon because the 5H took four points. Keep track of how often that works out for you. I'd feel pretty safe betting that 98-99% of the time you just end up eating 4 or more extra hearts.
The computer program does not cheat. Each Computer Player is programmed to track which cards have been played and which have not. For us humans this is difficult but not impossible. However, there is nothing in the program that allows the Computer Players to track if other players have showed out in a suit. For humans this is easy to track. With this programming flaw, the weird results described here when someone is running can occur. I an a runner (shoot the moon) and I saw that the computer would let me run when no human would ever be so stupid to do so. So I stopped trying to run and just play to go low every hand. I win 61% and this is better than you can do against humans. You can get a string of bad deals whenever you play hearts with himans shuffling the deck. Don't be paranoid. The computer is not against you. Try shooting the moon every hand and you will see how there is a flaw in the program that allows it to be done. Relax and enjoy it.
you are an idiot. uneven deals are the definition of cheating.
The odds of the queen of spades ending up in your multiple times in a row are less than 1%, and yet it will be in my hand 5-6 times per game, if not more.
The cutesy play should show up about as frequently, and yet it will appear multiple times per game.
you will take the queen on the second trick with 3,4,5 of diamond/clubs repeatedly if you are destined to lose.
Forget winning or losing, if you want proof of cheating, all you have to is start games over and over and dump them. The QS should appear in your hand as often as the 2H. Track it over say 40 games.
Why don't you go check that out, and then get back to me. There should be no pattern whatsoever to randomly dealt cards.
I'll have to amend my previous post, tracking it by hitting F2 to dump and start a new game won't work because it appears the first deal shocklingly is actually random.
If you really want to test this, you will have to track it over the course of the whole game. It isn't until I take a comfortable lead that I start getting single QS or only KA dumped into my hand.
Just to confirm to myself that I wasn't imagining things I played a game just now, had zero until the fourth hand, then had 3KA as my only spades, fifth hand passed QS, dealt void, sixth hand dealt KAJ spades, seventh hand dealt queen, eighth hand dealt KA, ninth hand passed QA, tenth hand A, which then ended in victory for me. I never saw the 2 of hearts a single time.
the other pattern I should mention is being dealt KA and few if any other spades repeatedly. It shows up about as frequently as being dealt the queen.
Just because you can't beat it doesn't mean it isn't cheating.
First of all, I'm not going to call anyone names, but I wholeheartedly agree with the last commenter that the game does cheat. Basically, the deals are not random and the skewed probabilities are detrimental to the human player.
I was essentially bedridden for several months and played thousands of games. I kept a log of many things the game did. A couple of the more egregious items was the QS dealt as a singleton at least 4 to 5 times more often than mathematically probable, and 70% of the time it was on the "no pass" hand, rather than the probable 25%. I was "dealt" the QS close to 2-1 vs. the 2H. I was dealt all 4 aces approximately 1 in 30 hands, opposed to the 1 in 400 hands probability tables show. There are many more examples.
Just another nail in the coffin of the supposed random nature of the MS game, I allocated each card points reflecting it's face value i.e 2 to 10 and then 11,12,13,14 for the Jacks, Queens, Kings and Aces. An average total of 104 per hand should result from random deals. I recorded 100 deals and I averaged 116.
There is more to the game than the face value of cards, particularly when one suit (hearts) are as penalties, but nevertheless, the average should be circa 104 and that simply was not the case.
One of my biggest peeves about the game is being dealt QS as a singleton, especialy on the "pass left" or "no pass" hands. I kept track of every singleton card I was dealt (over 2000). It's real simple, every card has an equal probability, which means about 2% of singletons should be the QS. I averaged drawing the QS every 14th time (about 7%). The most cards I EVER drew between the QS was 23. Three times in that experiment (about 500 games) I drew it twice in a single game.
I think the game is set up very much like "Free Cell'. In FreeCell there are a certain number of "games" programed, last I saw it was 1 million+ (out of billions possible). The more you win, the tougher the games you "draw" get.
I think Hearts does the same thing with hands. I believe there are a certain number of "hands" programed into the game. Say a hand that is 99.999% certain to force Player A to take the QS. In "real life" the probability of that hand may be 1/10th of 1%, but in MS Hearts it may be 5%. Or hands that virtually guarantee Player B takes zero points may occur naturally 10% of the time, but for the "chosen one" it may occur 70% of the time in a game.
Whoever programed this game either purposely or ineptly ignored "real life" probabilities with the "hands" that were put into the game.
Someone stated earlier in this blog that the odds of a perfect hand (holding all 13 clubs) were 63 billion to one, so yeah, you're fairly likely to see it in this game.
This comment is for those who want to win more games. You will still be the victim of the cutesy play. You will still be dealt a lone spade.
Life is tough.
trick #1 ... the big one ... remember 4 numbers ... the number of clubs played ... the number of diamonds played ... the number of spades played ... and the number of hearts played. Your winning percentage will jump from 33% to about 50%.
trick #2 ... when you have 2 hearts or less, consider shooting the moon. If you have 5H and a face card, play the 5H(or 6H &H ).
If you take that trick, then play the higher heart. Most versions allow the human to take 4 points
at all cost.
We know how the computer likes to play, so take advantage of its flaws.
I agree, I have played MS hearts since it inception. Yes it dose work on averages and my average is 40%. The game becomes relentless and dealt hands are completely against you being the winner. I have been playing hearts for 50 years and we as players will never see the hands dealt that MS hearts puts in front of you. An easy way to prove this
is to have only the ace or king of spades, the player across from you plays a spade and 90% if the time the player to the LT will have the queen. This is just one of the many tricks the AI has up its sleeves to keep the game competitive. Sunday I reset the stats. 4236 played. (39 to 40 percent) just remember online card AI dealers also cheat. Play Zynga poker, when you 1st sign up you’re a winner, if you know how to play poker you win, ( got dealt 2 royal flushes in 1 day) After a few hours or day you lose it all, Zynga hopes you will buy more chips. Free game to paid game. Some player have learned how the AI works and they rake it in.
The only way is to play live, hand dealt games.
Grab a deck of cards, screw the computer, it cheats!
I have shot the moon 3 to 4 times in a roll while playing MS hearts, not once but many times. And yes count your cards while playing, but little Miss MS hearts can be tricky and pass cards under the table. I will bet I'm right. By the way shooting the moon 3 times in a roll is impossible while playing experienced players using bicycle playing cards.
The dishonesty programed into MS Hearts is pathetic and truly shameful. The only positive thing I can say about it is that it has convinced me to NEVER play an on-line game where money is involved.
The cheating lengths this game goes to just to say, "Haha, you lose" just proves to me what they would do to steal your money. Shameless, immoral bastards.
My Hearts is version 5.1 on XP. It cheats. The wrong player quite often takes the trick. I wondered if it could be my mistake, but then I played a Queen in suit and lost the trick. Looking at my hand I still held the King and Ace, so mistake was impossible.
Watch how many times. on the first hand of a new game after you've won a game, you will be dealt lone QS. You pass it left and get passed AS & KS. That is a real favorite "placed hand" of the simple-minded moron who programed this game. Should be a one-in-several thousand occurence. I got it twice in four games.
I know for sure MS hearts cheats. This happened in three different ways.
1. Computer uses all three players to gang up on human player.
2. Deals rotten cards that is destined to make you lose or get a higher than normal score that can be tracked by statistical data. How I deal with the problem is canceling several games in a row before I start a new session. Seems to help verses not doing it.
3. Changing the score. In XP you used to give names to the computer player. I decided to play specifically against 1 of the computer players. I wanted to make sure my score was higher than that particular computer player. However, I have seen the score go me 22, comp 1 59, comp 2 72, comp 3 48. Next play comp 3 gets bonus hearts so every player but 3 gets 26 points. Yet, score came back me 48, comp 1 51, comp 2 69, comp 3 48. Computer cheated. Next 2 hand made me gain no less than 44 more points before computer 2 finally lost.
The only way to deal with the moron who programed this game is to NOT give him what he wants, namely you losing the game. It is MY computer, MY game, I make the rules. I REFUSE to let the game CHEAT me into a loss. When I get cheated, and am in danger of losing, I dump the game. It may be on the first hand or the last hand, with one card left to play.
When the game goes into "cheat mode", you may have to dump 5, 6, or more games in a row to break the mode. Do it ! Screw the dishonest creep !
Of all the bogus, dishonest crap this game pulls, the most disgusting and frustrating is "the Chosen One" bullsh*t.
Game after game after game, one hand is nearly impossible to give points to.
Pay attention to the cards that are continually "placed" in that hand. It is so blatantly, sickenly obvious the game is set up to allow one hand to maintain a lower score than yours.
Time after time you can play a great game. After 6 or 7 hands you look at the score and it's someting like 8, 63, 41, 17. One quick "stuff the queen up your ass" hand and you're behind and good luck trying to make that bot take a trick, much less points from then on. It happens way too often to be "bad luck" or "just the way the cards fell". Horsesh*t! It is shameful cheating.
Why does the game insist on making you lose!?!! I played three games last night that were all cheated away from me.
Game 1 - two bots in the 90's, I lead the 3rd bot by 23 pts. Of course, that bot miraculously draws a dead solid moonshot hand (takes tricks 3 thru 13).
Game 2 - Last hand, I lead by 14 pts. Hold 'em hand and I'm dealt Q, 6 of spades (big surprise) Three cards into the hand I've got 13 pts. Last 5 cards I hold 3,4,7,8 A of hearts. Bot leads 5,9,10,J,K of hearts. Two more pts. (of course, the chosen one takes zero) and I lose by 1.
Game 3 - I lead by 30 late in the game. Hand 12 I get dealt lone KS. Bot to my right has AC, leads a spade and I eat the queen, also get 4 hearts via the cutesy play. Hand 13, I get dealt void in spades, get passed the AS, bot to my right has AC, leads a spade and I eat the queen. Also get cutesy play (yes, again). I take 37 pts. in two hands, chosen one takes zero, I lose.
Anyone who wants to claim luck has dung for brains. The program is set to MAKE you lose certain games. For the life of me I can't figure out WHY?
Examples like you described above are absolutely not an attempt to "make the game competitive". They are designed to force you to lose, and it is pathetic, I've seen it many, many times.
It is bad enough that random deals are NOT programed into the game (too sophisticated, I guess) but evidently it is not too sophisticated to program placing hands that give the human just enough points to lose.
Sorry, I don't have a "why". I'll just say the programer is a dishonest cheat who should be a shame to himself, his family, and his company.
All I can say is "THANK YOU" I was really getting pissed off! NO details here other than its true, I mean come on, every time you get to a certain level you are screwed. Let's face it, the computer knows your hand and every one eleses, How can you possibly beat that?
In six games tonight, I was "dealt" the QS as a singleton 5 times. Also dealt AS & KS as singletons twice each. It was absolutely ridiculous. Is there ANYONE who still wants to claim random deals? It doesn't take a genius to know each card in the deck has exactly the same probability of being ddealt as a singleton. So why would the very worst card turn up 5 times before more than 45 cards turned up once? Oh yeah, three times it was on the "no-pass" hand. Naturally.
Four cutesy plays in an 11 hand game
Heck yes it cheats! I repeatedly get dealt the queen of spades nearly every single time! And usually if I play a king of spades, the "player" directly to the left of me will play the queen, every single time. And have you noticed that the game follows a pattern in suits and cards played by the other "players"?
Seriously, I will PAY someone to permanently delete the cutesy play from this game. I am so g-damned tired of opening hands with the 5H as low heart in the hand and KNOWING that 80-90% of the time. the 2H, 3H, 4H will lay in the other three hands. I get the 5H as low heart over twice as often as I get the 2H (I charted over 100 games and was dealt the 2H 14% of the time). The programer is a shameful cheat.
Have you ever noticed that, after you win a game, in the first hand of the next game you take the QS within the first two or three tricks? Think that's an accident? or just "bad luck"? NO!! It's the cheating loser's way of "handicapping" the game. Don't even finish the hand. Dump the game. And the next, and the next. if that's what it takes.
I don't even know if I can do this without using curses and inappropriate language to express my disgust and loathing of this game's programing. I have played hearts, bridge, pinochle, and poker for over 50 years. Iknow the odds and probabilities of cards. This game is so skewed it's ridiculous. I've played several thousand games and can only conclude, that for some reason, the programer must cause the human player to lose a certain amount of the time. Competitiveness is not the goal, I win many games by 50, 60, 70 pts. over all 3 players, but there are games (and stretches of games) you have no chance of winning. The same basic card combinations are placed in your hand over and over again. It's a verifiable fact that the deals are not random and the cards are placed in your hand with the sole purpose of making you lose. All involved are dispicable, dishonest cheats.
If anyone has any doubts about the game cheating, here are a few things to document and draw your own conclusions.
Take a notepad and note the following:
>mark down each time you are dealt (not passed) the 2H, 5H, QS. You have exactly the same probability for each card.
>Write down the spades and hearts you are dealt on "no-pass" hands.
>Keep track of how may points you take the first hand of the next game after a win.
>write down each card you are dealt as a singleton (only card in one suit) again, every card has exactly the same probability.
You can decide other things to keep track of. If anyone does this over a number of games and concludes everything is kosher, I'd sure like to hear about it.
I've noticed the QS being dealt as a singleton phenomenom for a long time. I would like to ask people to jot down all cards dealt as a singleton for 50, 100, or more games. Please respond on this blog if ANYONE comes up with ANY card more often than the QS. I really don't think anyone will.
About a year ago I tracked this for 1000 games. The QS came up over 250 times. Next closest was 70-some times, the AS, next was KS 60-some times. No other card showed up 10 times as a singleton. Find a math professor to figure the odds of that happening with true random dealing.
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